#031 The Art of Not Giving Up with Dmytro Krasun

[00:00:00] At that time I was contemplating on giving up after one month. I thought, okay, I probably should give up. And then suddenly, boom, there is a customer. I still remember him. He was building a directory, Tools for Creators. And it was the 4th of July and he decided it's a perfect fit for his product. So he subscribed for $7 per month. And for me it was, wow, I made a million. It was the best feeling. Like, it was cool.

[00:00:30] Hi, and welcome to the Code and Conquer podcast. Today our guest is Dmytro Krasun with his product Screenshot One, a service that helps developers take automated screenshots of websites via an API. Dmytro takes us through his journey of building the product, reaching 10k in monthly revenue and the realities of running it as a solo founder. We talk about the challenges of supporting many different websites, his approach to customer service, and how he balances the demands of running the business,

[00:01:00] with his personal life. He also shared his perspective about staying motivated and building a sustainable business, and how a seemingly simple product can also have a huge amount of challenges and setbacks. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Let's jump right in.

[00:01:16] And welcome to the Code and Conquer podcast episode 31 we're now at. Today my guest is Dmytro Krasun, who does Screenshot One, an API product. Hi Dmytro, how are you doing?

[00:01:27] Hi Tobias, thanks for having me. I'm doing pretty well now after talking to you for a few minutes. You have pretty good vibe.

[00:01:37] Did that ease you into the podcast episode so you're more relaxed now?

[00:01:41] Yes, I did a lot of work, a lot of support tickets, like everything happens. SEO, Google updates. And now we're just talking and I can focus only on you and let's go.

[00:01:53] Awesome. Perfect. Why don't you just start out then with telling us a little bit about Screenshot One, what it does, what your typical customer is, and what you're trying to do with it?

[00:02:03] Yeah, sure. I would love to. It's everything that I do that's my job to tell people about Screenshot One. That's marketing. I just realized it recently.

[00:02:15] Screenshot One is a simple tool for developers mostly. It allows you to give an URL of any website and get back a screenshot of this website.

[00:02:25] That's simple. Yes. But this simplicity covers a lot of nuances, for example, blocking cookie banners, GDPR banners, everything like making your screenshot clean, including new Slater pop-ups, including a lot of fixes for websites, because sometimes websites are not rendered correctly in the browser.

[00:02:44] Due to viewports, you want to make your screenshot for mobile. I need to do a lot of custom fixes, CSS. Some of them are automatically detected. Some of them I do manually per website.

[00:02:57] And a lot of stuff like this. Yes.

[00:02:59] And typical users are developers. They integrate this product into their product to make screenshots. And when I say developers, those who write content and those who don't write code. Yes. So non-code developers also.

[00:03:14] But my main focus is developers. Yes. And my customer in general terms, let's say my ideal customer profile is companies. Imagine a company with five employees and company working in marketing or in cold email industry, for example.

[00:03:33] And they have a product manager or something like that. And maybe two developers, one or two developers.

[00:03:41] Yes. And they need, but they need for their product, they need to automate screenshots somehow to their use case.

[00:03:46] But they don't have time to manage browsers, scale them, applying all these custom fixes and so on.

[00:03:53] So they pay me starting from $17 a month, like this small to up to some companies pay me like, I don't know, $300, even $1,000 per month for that.

[00:04:06] And I just do everything for them. And I try to automate everything. I care about uptime. I care about stability, like validations.

[00:04:15] Like, like it's, I try to cover everything so that you don't think of this boring type of job. And these are my customers, companies like this.

[00:04:23] And I noticed recently that in some industries, people see my product as more valuable than in other industries.

[00:04:32] Let's say, for example, somebody who does, somebody who needs, somebody who needs render HTML, some simple template, have some template and to fill it with some data.

[00:04:43] Probably they're not the best fit for my product, but because they can pin up a puppeteer browser and do it themselves.

[00:04:51] And it will be stable. I think it will work nicely.

[00:04:55] Yes. But some people who need to screenshot a lot of different websites on the internet, just public websites and covering all the issues, revise everything.

[00:05:03] They really understand the pain and they're really happy to pay me even more.

[00:05:07] Some people literally said that I need to charge more.

[00:05:10] But if I charge more, some other people will say it's too expensive.

[00:05:13] So I don't know. But okay, that's my product.

[00:05:16] It's an API for developers to automate website screenshots, I would say.

[00:05:21] And I got to admit that I know you from 2022 or even earlier already.

[00:05:27] That's like when I started into in my indie hacker career was like way earlier when I was starting to read like Peter Level's blog when that was still up.

[00:05:35] But then diving into the Twitter sphere was probably 2021, 2022.

[00:05:40] And I know you from like the start.

[00:05:42] And I have to admit that I haven't, I didn't understand your product at the beginning.

[00:05:48] So I'm trying to like take the role of my listeners here and ask like one more specific question for the product, which is what's like an example customer you could name?

[00:05:58] What are they doing with the product?

[00:06:00] Why do they need screenshots by API?

[00:06:03] What are they doing in their product with them?

[00:06:05] So it's like valuable to them.

[00:06:07] Sure, sure.

[00:06:08] I must admit also that I didn't know what I was doing when I started.

[00:06:12] I had some ideas.

[00:06:14] But now I see much more use cases.

[00:06:17] I have much more customers.

[00:06:19] And sometimes I am just like, wow, that's a use case I haven't thought before.

[00:06:25] For example, let's start for something simple.

[00:06:28] For example, landing folio built by Danny Postma.

[00:06:33] Also landing.gallery.

[00:06:36] Also, I need to check.

[00:06:38] I need probably to make a list of these sites and showcase them.

[00:06:42] So landing page gallery.

[00:06:44] Pretty simple, yes.

[00:06:45] Directory or any directory that needs a screenshot of a website.

[00:06:48] Pretty simple use case, yes.

[00:06:50] So they just get an URL.

[00:06:52] They send me it and they get back screenshot and store it and show it to their users, visitors, webpages.

[00:06:58] Yes, that's pretty simple.

[00:07:00] Then you have something more interesting.

[00:07:03] For example, some users using the API for...

[00:07:09] Okay, example.

[00:07:11] For rendering templates.

[00:07:13] They have a template of invoice or template of some document.

[00:07:18] And they fill this data and they send this data to their customers.

[00:07:23] It's like there is a huge industry.

[00:07:25] And probably it deserves to be a separate standalone product only for this kind of use case.

[00:07:29] But somehow people still find me for these keywords like screenshots to PDF, something like that.

[00:07:35] Yes.

[00:07:36] Or for example, somebody like...

[00:07:39] Do you remember...

[00:07:40] Do you know Stefan Wirth?

[00:07:43] Yes.

[00:07:44] Yeah.

[00:07:44] Yes.

[00:07:45] Pretty cool guy.

[00:07:46] So he's my customer now and I love his use case.

[00:07:49] So what he does and what he noticed that when he sends reminders to his users who visits his Bridesmaid speech website, he sends a reminder to them.

[00:07:59] And it didn't work or had like low CTR.

[00:08:03] Like people saw this reminder to get back on the website and to pay and something like that.

[00:08:07] But then he just screenshot it and added some visual graphics and like screenshot of their speech, something like that.

[00:08:14] And then he had like high CTR.

[00:08:16] And a lot of cases like that.

[00:08:18] People use an API to render.

[00:08:19] I send you a cold email.

[00:08:22] For example, Tobias, I checked your podcast website and I see how you can improve an SEO.

[00:08:29] And then I put a screenshot of your website in the email and it somehow it rises the CTR.

[00:08:38] Like people open these emails, click and visit.

[00:08:40] And so people notice that and integrate my API also that way.

[00:08:44] Also a lot of use cases like...

[00:08:47] Actually, I have a dedicated web page for that.

[00:08:49] Like it's screenshot one slash use case or something like that.

[00:08:52] But a lot of use cases like recently analyzing a landing page with AI or some problems on landing pages.

[00:09:00] Competitor monitoring change.

[00:09:02] So people do screenshots and then check difference and then notify about difference.

[00:09:07] Something like that.

[00:09:08] I also want to do something like that for myself.

[00:09:10] But, you know, I just started to sponsor some websites.

[00:09:14] And I noticed I want to have screenshots of these sponsorships.

[00:09:19] And I want to see when they started and when they finished and they have the history of this.

[00:09:22] And I think, wow, my product fits this use case.

[00:09:25] I can use it for this.

[00:09:26] And sending or something interesting.

[00:09:29] Let me check it for a second.

[00:09:30] Like I have thousands of use cases like that.

[00:09:33] Ah, also Open Graphium and just for websites.

[00:09:36] Yes.

[00:09:38] Also, what else?

[00:09:40] What else?

[00:09:41] Let me check it.

[00:09:42] So many, so many integrations with a lot of tools like Zapier, Make and others perform.

[00:09:53] Yes.

[00:09:53] Yes.

[00:09:54] Like enriching blog posts.

[00:09:55] For example, you have a blog post and you have mentioned some links in it.

[00:09:59] Some customers enrich with blog posts automatically with screenshots.

[00:10:03] Like to make them more compelling, engaging and so on.

[00:10:07] And many more use cases like that.

[00:10:08] But I imagine like how did this start?

[00:10:11] When you actually started with the product, did you have like your own use case in mind?

[00:10:16] Or was there like one use case you were trying to build for at the beginning?

[00:10:19] Yes.

[00:10:20] I only had one use case in mind.

[00:10:23] Potential use case like these directories, for example.

[00:10:26] I somehow thought that there is a lot of directories and all the new screenshots, something like that.

[00:10:31] Yes.

[00:10:31] I actually started randomly.

[00:10:33] I had a lot of ideas, a lot of API ideas.

[00:10:36] Before that, I started from products, something like Twitter analytics tool.

[00:10:41] But I realized that I'm backend engineers, server site engineer, and I don't have good enough UI skills to build something great.

[00:10:50] So I decided, okay, I can build an API product.

[00:10:52] What API product?

[00:10:53] And I had a list of a lot of ideas I generated for some time.

[00:10:57] So I had, for example, email validation API, IP country code API, something like that.

[00:11:03] Yes.

[00:11:03] And I had a screenshot API.

[00:11:04] And at that time, before like all this AI hype and everything, it was pretty interesting, challenging task to solve.

[00:11:12] I also had a scraping API idea in mind.

[00:11:15] But I saw it, I saw back that time, it would be so much more complicated.

[00:11:20] And I think now it's more complicated than doing just screenshots.

[00:11:24] And screenshots also complicated.

[00:11:25] But this one, like bypassing all these protections and so on.

[00:11:30] And you also have a lot of legal gray areas.

[00:11:33] I don't know.

[00:11:34] I'm not sure I want to build a business like on this ground where I need to take care and to make sure that all my steps are legal and so on.

[00:11:41] So for screenshots, it's, it looks similar, but not.

[00:11:45] So I started from screenshots, screenshot API.

[00:11:48] And I built like some basic features.

[00:11:51] Like somehow I imagine this should be enough for, for somebody who wants to integrate it in the directory.

[00:11:58] And then I started promoting it everywhere.

[00:12:00] Like indie hackers, Reddit, it was Google paid ads.

[00:12:04] It was hacker news.

[00:12:06] It was Twitter, like everywhere.

[00:12:08] Yes.

[00:12:08] Like for one month.

[00:12:10] Didn't sleep well.

[00:12:11] It was super hard.

[00:12:13] And I think I was, at that time, I was contemplating on giving up after one month.

[00:12:20] I thought, okay, I probably should give up.

[00:12:23] And I don't know how it works, but it often works that way.

[00:12:26] And then suddenly, boom, there is a customer, a paying customer.

[00:12:30] And it was my friend on Twitter.

[00:12:32] I still remember him.

[00:12:34] It was Janice.

[00:12:35] And he was building a directory, Tools for Creators.

[00:12:39] And it was 4th of July.

[00:12:40] And he decided he could, it's a perfect fit for his product.

[00:12:46] So he subscribed for $7 per month.

[00:12:48] And for me, it was, wow.

[00:12:50] I made a million.

[00:12:51] It was the best feeling.

[00:12:53] Like it was cool.

[00:12:54] And then I decided, okay, okay.

[00:12:55] I found a customer on Twitter.

[00:12:58] Yes.

[00:12:59] And then I found one paying customer on Google through paid ads.

[00:13:03] I decided, you know what?

[00:13:04] I will probably focus only on two channels.

[00:13:07] Twitter and Google paid ads and SEO.

[00:13:09] And then for one year, I think.

[00:13:12] It was not like smoothly.

[00:13:14] It was with a lot of doubts.

[00:13:17] Again, I was thinking to quit every month, every week and so on.

[00:13:21] But I was thinking something like, okay, I got one customer.

[00:13:25] Now I need to get to 10 customers.

[00:13:28] And if I found one on Twitter, maybe I can find 10 more on Twitter or Google.

[00:13:32] Yes.

[00:13:33] And then I like focused my efforts on Twitter and Google.

[00:13:39] And that was like aggressively promoting and marketing and so on.

[00:13:43] It didn't work for me.

[00:13:44] But still, I got some customers.

[00:13:46] I get it to 10.

[00:13:47] And then I realized, okay, if I can get 10, maybe I can get 50.

[00:13:52] So that kept me going.

[00:13:54] And always this question, if I will survive a little bit more, a few more months.

[00:13:59] What if I can just try to achieve this goal?

[00:14:01] So then it was like 100.

[00:14:04] Then I launched in Product Hunt.

[00:14:05] And every time, like some people came and I just didn't expect them to use API this way

[00:14:10] or that way.

[00:14:11] Or some company is using an API for copyright infringement.

[00:14:15] The screenshot websites and send notifications about others stealing data and so on.

[00:14:22] So many like use cases.

[00:14:23] I couldn't even imagine like generating ads previews.

[00:14:27] Like you have HTML ads, but people want to convert them into images and to publish them to ad networks.

[00:14:34] Like something I haven't thought before.

[00:14:38] But how do you like, like when you get that many use cases thrown your way, like how do you even decide which ones to support then?

[00:14:47] Yes.

[00:14:48] Yes.

[00:14:48] No, I must be honest.

[00:14:50] I didn't think about it much.

[00:14:52] I just was trying to, like if somebody asked me something, I was adding like every feature, like almost every parameter to the API.

[00:15:00] Now, I think for the past few months, I probably added only one parameter.

[00:15:04] And it was, I was so resistant to audit, but I realized, okay, I need to do that.

[00:15:09] It's impossible to solve some use cases without it.

[00:15:12] But I wasn't focusing on any use case on any customer profile.

[00:15:18] Before I think two things happened.

[00:15:20] Like I was reading a lot of, I'm a huge fan of Jason Cohen and his, I think people on Twitter, like really missing out on reading his blog.

[00:15:29] He's writing about business and he has a lot of experience, but it's not enough.

[00:15:34] Like a lot of businessmen, a lot of entrepreneurs has a lot of experience.

[00:15:37] There are a lot of successful people, but he has, he has a talent to, to distill this lessons into simple form for somebody who is just starting.

[00:15:48] And also, he tries to remove biases somehow, like he also knows that it could be like a survivor bias, survival bias, survivorship bias and so on.

[00:16:00] All this stuff.

[00:16:01] Yes.

[00:16:02] And somehow his whole, his content is super useful and you can act on it actually.

[00:16:08] Yes.

[00:16:08] You can read about, you can read something on specific topic, for example, on positioning.

[00:16:12] There is a good article he wrote, it's called, who is Carol and many more like I can, I probably can quote them like line by line, but it was super helpful.

[00:16:24] What I mean by that, that after reading his articles, then I read one more book by April Dunford about positioning.

[00:16:31] I realized that for one year and a half, probably I was growing super slowly.

[00:16:37] Yes.

[00:16:37] But I didn't have any kind of customer profile in my head, but because of this resource, but the way, thanks to Daniel Nguyen, he, I think he showed me, he was who showed me Jason coin posts first.

[00:16:52] And he also has a lot of good stuff sharing, sharing a lot of good stuff.

[00:16:56] I realized I don't have ideal customer profile and I need to focus.

[00:17:00] But what I was afraid for, I was afraid that if I focus only on some specific customer, I will lose everybody else.

[00:17:06] Yes.

[00:17:06] And that was the post by Jason Cohen, who is Carol about.

[00:17:12] Yes.

[00:17:13] It feels pretty counterintuitive, but if you position only for one specific type of customer, if I'm with everybody else, you will resonate more with this type of customer.

[00:17:24] But this other guys or girls, yeah, they will notice you and they will still can use you and still adapt your software to their use case.

[00:17:33] You won't hold them.

[00:17:34] And that was, I was afraid of that.

[00:17:37] So that helped me.

[00:17:38] And I decided to focus on something simple, but still it was like wide focus.

[00:17:44] What do you mean by that?

[00:17:45] What do you mean by that?

[00:17:45] I decided I will focus only on developers and I will do everything to resonate with developers in small companies.

[00:17:53] Like specifically small companies.

[00:17:55] I didn't want to deal.

[00:17:56] I had some negotiations with the companies, with a lot of employees and so on.

[00:18:01] And they started to ask me a lot of questions and all this stuff.

[00:18:05] And I decided, okay, you know what?

[00:18:07] My goal is to make 10K MRR.

[00:18:09] And I feel it's possible to do it without tapping into enterprises.

[00:18:13] Like at this stage, I don't want to build a unicorn.

[00:18:15] At that stage in the past, I didn't want to build a unicorn.

[00:18:18] And I thought, okay, I probably can reach that goal without too much hassle with enterprise companies.

[00:18:27] So I decided to focus on small companies and with developers.

[00:18:30] And all features, all copy on my landing page, on my blog posts, everything you will see is positioned to resonate with developers.

[00:18:41] For example, you will see a piece of code on the main page.

[00:18:44] You will see it's API for developers.

[00:18:46] You will see that Cloudflare features Screenshot 1.

[00:18:49] So you will see like everything, all terms around this.

[00:18:53] A lot of code, like playground with code, blog posts about that.

[00:18:58] Organization feature focused on small companies, not on big companies.

[00:19:01] For example, small companies, usually developer signups.

[00:19:05] And then he or she asks for somebody who will pay for the software.

[00:19:10] You don't need to build complex organizational stuff with projects and so on.

[00:19:15] You just need some simple stuff where somebody can sign up and just require somebody else who will pay for the software.

[00:19:22] So it's also like part of this positioning features.

[00:19:26] Like on Twitter, writing, communicating with testimonials, showing for small companies.

[00:19:32] But some of them are not small companies.

[00:19:34] But like focusing on, let's say for example, if you go to a landing page of some software and their customers are Google, I don't know.

[00:19:46] Amazon, the New York Times.

[00:19:48] For example.

[00:19:49] And you're a small solopreneur who needs some simple feature, some simple cheap software, for example.

[00:19:56] Yes.

[00:19:56] And you see all those brands.

[00:19:58] It might not resonate that much with you.

[00:20:01] But if you see testimonials from somebody like you, it's just my assumption.

[00:20:06] Probably Wilson or Oliver from Sancho knows it better.

[00:20:09] But my assumption is that seeing the same testimonials from the same people will also help to partially play for positioning.

[00:20:19] So when I did that and started to work on purpose for these companies, for this type of customer profile, I started to grow.

[00:20:28] It changed much.

[00:20:31] It's changed a lot.

[00:20:34] Plus, I focused on SEO.

[00:20:37] Like I started to work on backlinks, on content, improving content and so on.

[00:20:40] Like checking all product analytics funnel.

[00:20:43] It was like stage two of my journey.

[00:20:45] And then I reached, I planned, my goal was to reach 10K till the end of 2024.

[00:20:52] Now it's, and I reached it in September, like three months before.

[00:20:56] It was like full focus on all this product analytics, SEO, crafting articles.

[00:21:01] It was like, I probably did some side projects, but I was focused only on this one at the second stage.

[00:21:07] Because before that, I tried to launch some landing hunt, landing page gallery.

[00:21:12] I was, I launched a demo tool and sold it.

[00:21:15] So it was a little bit of distraction.

[00:21:17] But then I just focused, reached 10K and now I don't know what to do.

[00:21:21] Really, really.

[00:21:22] No, really.

[00:21:24] I'm super grateful.

[00:21:25] Also to all people, including you who support me on Twitter.

[00:21:28] And it was cool journey.

[00:21:30] It's, I'm super lucky.

[00:21:32] But, but yes, I'm complaining in a sense that I don't know what should be the next goal.

[00:21:37] What's stage three?

[00:21:38] Yeah.

[00:21:38] Yes.

[00:21:39] So currently I'm just focusing on support tickets on improving the product uptime.

[00:21:43] And I have, I like, I just want to make it like more stable, more performant, like something that people would talk about.

[00:21:50] So I don't need to do marketing.

[00:21:53] But yes, but I don't have any kind of like 100K MRR next or I don't know, big company, unicorn.

[00:21:59] Don't have this kind of goals now.

[00:22:02] You already said that you don't really know where to go from here.

[00:22:05] But if the 100K isn't your goal, do we have a goal in mind?

[00:22:09] What's the thing that you want to achieve with it?

[00:22:12] Yes.

[00:22:12] I'm pretty honest.

[00:22:13] I don't have like currently, I don't have any goal in mind.

[00:22:16] I just go like I have probably for this month and next month, I have a few metrics that I want to improve.

[00:22:23] Like I want to have, I want to raise MRR a little bit and to reduce my expenses to now make 10K as a profit before taxes.

[00:22:32] And then I want to make, then I want to reduce my charm.

[00:22:35] I want to see customers leaving me much, much, at much, much lower rate.

[00:22:39] And I want to improve product.

[00:22:40] I see a few areas where it can be much, much, much better, like to completely crush it.

[00:22:46] So if somebody signs up, they're like, wow, I want to share it with my friends because it's so cool, something like that.

[00:22:51] I see a few improvements I can do.

[00:22:54] But I don't have goals like I want to hire people to raise stuff, to build something else.

[00:22:59] I think about some different ideas, some new projects, but I'm not sure.

[00:23:04] So like experimenting a little bit, something like that.

[00:23:08] I have a whole, like a big topic I want to talk about, but I'm not sure how to ask the question because all of this that you just said is playing into it.

[00:23:17] So I was looking at your project and I was coming up with topics and questions to talk about.

[00:23:23] And I was like, I'm trying to imagine like our developers as customers.

[00:23:30] Is that a great thing to have?

[00:23:33] Because they obviously can do good bug reports.

[00:23:35] They might be a little easy on you because they know how stuff is developed.

[00:23:39] Or are they like the harshest critics of them all?

[00:23:42] And how does that work out with your churn and stuff like that?

[00:23:46] So how are the customers?

[00:23:48] How are the users to you even though they're developers?

[00:23:51] It's a good question.

[00:23:52] It's a good question.

[00:23:53] I would say that developers are people anyway.

[00:23:57] And to my experience, rarely I see something negative in support.

[00:24:04] It's like sometimes some people come and just super nasty and just treat you like a slave, let's say.

[00:24:12] And you do that, do this, do that, and so on.

[00:24:14] And I will pay you this $5.

[00:24:16] I don't know.

[00:24:17] But it's so rare.

[00:24:19] It's like one to 200, something like that to my experience.

[00:24:24] Most of the time, most of the time, I'm crazy grateful to my customers.

[00:24:28] Like some people, they not only help me to fix bugs, fix issues, give me like feature ideas and so on.

[00:24:36] They also help to promote my product for somebody likes to, somebody posts it about me on Twitter or on their blog and so on.

[00:24:43] It was like, I didn't ask them for that.

[00:24:45] And it was like, wow, I guess I really liked it.

[00:24:50] And the developers, also there is a spectrum.

[00:24:53] Some developers are pretty advanced.

[00:24:55] So I have probably now, it's an intuition, like about 40% of my customers using my product without reaching out to me.

[00:25:05] Like nothing, like self-serve, no tickets to support.

[00:25:08] They signed up, they paid, they use it, and then they churn and nothing happens.

[00:25:12] And some have corner cases, they have questions.

[00:25:17] And there is some good report.

[00:25:20] They send me cool requests, like with all headers and so on.

[00:25:24] And I like that, yes.

[00:25:25] For example, Jorma, Lucas Herman is my customer.

[00:25:29] Yes.

[00:25:29] And he's sending me crazy good reports, like showing this doesn't work, that doesn't work.

[00:25:36] I tried this and so on.

[00:25:37] I really love them.

[00:25:39] I think he is my customer because he is supporting me, not because he needs my product.

[00:25:43] But he uses my product.

[00:25:44] He has use case.

[00:25:46] He needs it.

[00:25:47] Yes.

[00:25:47] But it's so nice of him.

[00:25:49] And I have customers, like, and then I have customers, like my API, if you have an error

[00:25:56] in my API, you will get error code.

[00:25:59] You will get description, short description, and you will get a link to the documentation.

[00:26:03] In the documentation, I will describe you why this error happens and how you can fix it

[00:26:07] in a few ways.

[00:26:08] You don't need me at all for most errors or probably for all errors.

[00:26:12] But some people, it's real, it's real.

[00:26:15] So some people posting me a screenshot of this error, they ask me a question.

[00:26:20] And this question is, it's in the, my answer is in the description on this error already.

[00:26:26] So what I do is, it's a joke, but I just copied this description, pasted, and they say,

[00:26:32] oh, okay.

[00:26:32] I don't know.

[00:26:33] Maybe some people need, when they see a live support chat, they need to talk, I don't

[00:26:36] know, to have kind of approval that they understood the issue, something like that.

[00:26:40] Yes.

[00:26:40] But so what I try to do, I try to make, like, to make everything clear so they don't need,

[00:26:45] they don't need to reach support at all.

[00:26:48] And I will add more feature, I will add more tools in the future so that they can fix even

[00:26:53] some things if something happens.

[00:26:56] But still, there are people who reach out to support without, I am suspicious.

[00:27:00] They probably just want to talk, I don't know.

[00:27:02] Because I like, I described everything, I shared everything.

[00:27:06] There is a link in this API error.

[00:27:07] There is description how you can fix it, what you can do, screenshot how you can integrate

[00:27:12] something and so on.

[00:27:13] Like, everything I could imagine of, yes?

[00:27:16] And I don't know.

[00:27:16] And the problem with that, on every support request, I try to think how I can prevent that

[00:27:22] from happening in the future, yes?

[00:27:25] I assume by default that I am not right, I'm wrong, I did something wrong.

[00:27:28] If somebody came to me to my support chat, it's my problem, it's not their problem.

[00:27:32] And I'm thinking how I can improve that.

[00:27:34] But in some cases, like I said, I just don't know what to do.

[00:27:37] Like, I described everything.

[00:27:38] You see everything.

[00:27:40] Oh, and I don't know how to improve it, except I can just block support chat.

[00:27:45] And then people will see it.

[00:27:46] And maybe sometimes it happens.

[00:27:48] I have this chat on my phone.

[00:27:51] And then I have a chat on my phone.

[00:27:53] And then I get this support tickets.

[00:27:55] I see, but I am, for example, with kids and I can't answer immediately.

[00:27:59] So I answer, let's say, in 30 minutes.

[00:28:01] And then I see, like, after five minutes, somebody, oh, okay, no need.

[00:28:05] I just, I solved it.

[00:28:07] I solved it.

[00:28:08] And I think that will happen a lot of times if you just don't answer.

[00:28:12] Because I have to, yesterday, I wrote an email to an, what's it called?

[00:28:17] An IT admin for a company that I work with.

[00:28:20] And they have me working through a VPN, which is behaving badly.

[00:28:24] And then I finally got it to work.

[00:28:26] And I sent this guy, like, 10 emails because I'm dumb.

[00:28:29] And then I got it to work.

[00:28:30] I wanted to install something through Docker.

[00:28:32] And I did that.

[00:28:33] And it got blocked.

[00:28:34] And I was like, okay, obviously, they have the outbound traffic blocked on a server that needs outbound traffic.

[00:28:43] And I wrote him an email.

[00:28:44] And he came back, like, 10 minutes later and was like, yeah, did you try doing that with sudo command?

[00:28:49] Like, with the root command?

[00:28:50] And I was like, oh, I never actually thought about that.

[00:28:53] Yes.

[00:28:53] And I was like, okay, that's 100% my fault.

[00:28:56] And I'm like, I'm just too dumb to fucking use a terminal.

[00:29:00] And I think that's, I have written so many support emails and Slack messages where I was like five minutes later.

[00:29:06] I was like, oh, sorry.

[00:29:08] I fixed it.

[00:29:09] It was my mistake.

[00:29:10] No, the curveballs.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:11] And I think that's, like, a lot of these things.

[00:29:13] One thing I wanted to ask there was, like, do you already post a link to the documentation?

[00:29:18] Have you ever thought about adding a field that just says, like, something like, read the fucking manual?

[00:29:24] No, I have this kind of, I have in my response, in my, when you have an API response.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:31] I have, yes, I have this link in the response.

[00:29:35] So you see, for example, that there is, I just wanted to open it and show, but okay.

[00:29:41] Like, in the API documentation URL in the API response, and it's a link, and you can just open it, and you will see everything you need to solve it.

[00:29:48] What happens usually when somebody reach out to me?

[00:29:51] I open this link myself and copy and paste it.

[00:29:54] But have you ever, like, have you ever experimented with just adding, like, a field above that link?

[00:30:01] Ah, read the manual?

[00:30:01] That just says, read the link, open the link, and there is the solution?

[00:30:04] Have you ever tried that?

[00:30:05] Oh, it sounds interesting.

[00:30:07] It can be, like, it's a bit, like, it's a bit of...

[00:30:10] It's a nudge, right?

[00:30:10] It's, you could just open this link, you don't have to contact me.

[00:30:13] Yeah.

[00:30:13] Yes, it's, it can, it can work, I think.

[00:30:16] Because what I learned from, from working in support, as a support engineer, like, people are in so many different situations in their life, in so many different moods.

[00:30:27] Like, somebody can be super smart and have IQ, like, I don't believe in IQ, but just for example, IQ, like, 200, but they just woke up, they have a lot of kids around.

[00:30:38] Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:38] A lot of kids, and then just, they just want to ask you to help them, so they don't have enough power, enough energy to solve this, and they don't notice all these links.

[00:30:47] So I decided I will answer anybody, I will help anybody, like, even if somebody comes from my competitors and are confused.

[00:30:55] But, but yes, it's a good idea, like, it's somehow to, to provoke reading it.

[00:31:00] It might be interesting.

[00:31:01] Yeah, like, nudge them towards the link, yeah.

[00:31:02] Yes, it might be something like, your, like, solution is there.

[00:31:06] There is, that's how to fix it, something like that.

[00:31:09] Because, like, my error rate now, like, 90% success rate, let's say.

[00:31:16] So 10% is, like, my errors, not my errors, but, but sometimes browser fails, networking fails, site is blocking the API and so on.

[00:31:27] There is not so much I can do with it.

[00:31:29] I improve it.

[00:31:29] I improve a lot of this.

[00:31:30] But a lot of errors happens just because people send, for example, broken links, some access keys, not valid, or, I don't know, selector is not found and they want to screenshot by selectors.

[00:31:42] And I share with them, I share the document where I say how you can check that your selector, you can go to Google Chrome DevTools before you use the screenshot API, something like that.

[00:31:52] So, yes, it's a lot of what I'm working now on and I have already deployed it, like, and people started to use it.

[00:32:00] You have this request log and then you can click one button and say this record doesn't work or you need to check it.

[00:32:08] And this button opens feedback window and you can check a reason why you want to check it and to explain it to me.

[00:32:14] Then I get it directly and I can quickly check the screenshot myself and try to fix it and so on.

[00:32:19] But what I want to do at the next stage, when they answer me all the questions and if I know for sure what is the problem, I can give the solutions right away in this window without sending even a message to me.

[00:32:31] But I am now working on classification, like, let's say, of this.

[00:32:35] I want to see, like, all the problems are coming and then try to classify them and try to give it, like, an automated answer.

[00:32:43] Like, it doesn't even, you don't need even AI for some use cases, let's say.

[00:32:46] Yeah, we just talked about this with a friend who said AI isn't that interesting to him.

[00:32:51] They work in data science already.

[00:32:53] Yes.

[00:32:54] And his AI didn't really change that much because we had a lot of classification tools before that and they are fine for most things.

[00:33:00] So you might even not need that.

[00:33:02] But it's opening question I wanted to ask you anyway, which is you're supporting a lot of tools.

[00:33:09] Like, you're supporting no-code tools and also integrations like Zapier.

[00:33:13] You're also supporting a lot of programming languages.

[00:33:16] And now you're telling me, like, for, and that's something I've seen with customers that have mentioned you on Twitter as well, that you're manually fixing a lot of websites if something comes up.

[00:33:27] That seems to me like a massive amount of work.

[00:33:30] Like, all this.

[00:33:32] Somebody noticed it.

[00:33:33] Thank you.

[00:33:37] Yeah, it seems like there is a lot of manual work.

[00:33:40] And you also just talked on Twitter about copycats and how they're all, like, how they all fail.

[00:33:45] And I can see why.

[00:33:46] Yes, yes, I agree.

[00:33:49] Yes.

[00:33:50] Yes.

[00:33:51] It's a lot of work.

[00:33:52] I don't know.

[00:33:52] Like, today is 45 days since I ship daily for Screenshot 1, like, be it marketing or coding or support tickets.

[00:34:01] Like, I started to track it just for curiosity.

[00:34:03] And now it's like a strike of...

[00:34:05] And I would say that thanks for having me again on this podcast because it's, for me, it's...

[00:34:10] I'm still, in some sense, working.

[00:34:13] Like, we're talking about the business and I'm thinking and have new perspectives from you.

[00:34:18] But I'm just a little bit relaxed and can, like, to talk about some...

[00:34:23] Like, to not be pushed by support tickets and tasks I need to close.

[00:34:27] Yes, a lot of support tickets because a lot of sites have issues and so on.

[00:34:31] That was many people, many copycats and developers don't understand when they want to copy.

[00:34:36] It feels pretty simple.

[00:34:37] I agree it's pretty simple.

[00:34:39] Just install Puppeture and so on.

[00:34:40] And it's okay.

[00:34:40] It works nice for a small set of websites.

[00:34:43] But when you, like, go to the public internet and you will see so many strange websites.

[00:34:48] For example, I don't know.

[00:34:50] Some website is rendered in the browser, but they return status 100.

[00:34:55] And you render it with Puppeture and it fails.

[00:34:57] But it's actually rendered.

[00:34:59] It's some...

[00:35:00] Or some website, like, is have an HTTP address.

[00:35:04] And then they have a redirect to the HTTPS.

[00:35:08] But, oh, I don't remember.

[00:35:09] So many strange corner cases.

[00:35:11] Or CSS.

[00:35:12] Or you update the Chrome browser and it doesn't render correctly now.

[00:35:16] So what I want to say that, like, it's partially why I make money.

[00:35:21] Because I take all of this headache on me, like, from the customers.

[00:35:26] And I understand that, like, people pay me.

[00:35:28] That's why I also answer also pull tickets and try to help.

[00:35:31] Because people pay me for that, you know, for fixing all these issues.

[00:35:34] Not only because they want screenshots, yes.

[00:35:38] So, yes.

[00:35:39] But I'm trying now.

[00:35:40] I'm in the stage now that I try to automate more and more.

[00:35:43] Try to, as much as possible, try to share more documentation, more SDKs, more playground,

[00:35:49] more options, like, you know, like, as much as I see the number of support tickets is dropping.

[00:35:56] And for me, it feels good.

[00:35:57] Also, the number of errors, success rate grows.

[00:36:00] Like, it feels like I'm going in the right direction.

[00:36:03] I'm not sure that automation for 100% will be possible.

[00:36:06] But a lot of cases can be covered.

[00:36:08] This question, when people just post me an error from the API, I can just...

[00:36:12] I can automate it with AI, you know?

[00:36:14] Yeah, sure.

[00:36:15] I can probably do it.

[00:36:16] I don't want to take...

[00:36:17] I don't want to have an AI chatbot because I hate them, like, when I talk to them.

[00:36:21] So, I don't want...

[00:36:21] Like, you know, the golden rule.

[00:36:23] Behave with people like you want people to behave with you.

[00:36:26] Treat people like you want people to treat with you.

[00:36:29] I don't like talking to AI chatbots.

[00:36:31] For example, when my credit card is blocked, I'm in Thailand and I need to pay for some food.

[00:36:37] And the only option...

[00:36:39] It's a real use case.

[00:36:40] Or tickets, I don't remember.

[00:36:42] And I can only talk to a chatbot.

[00:36:45] Wow, it's...

[00:36:46] I hate it.

[00:36:48] So...

[00:36:48] But the real reason is not that I hate it.

[00:36:51] There is one more reason, you know?

[00:36:53] This support chat is also like a sales channel, you know?

[00:36:57] It's like marketing channel.

[00:36:58] People come, you talk to them, you get new ideas about your product.

[00:37:02] And sometimes even...

[00:37:04] I have a few ideas that I probably need to build, maybe a little bit later.

[00:37:09] But people just ask me, okay, you give us screenshots.

[00:37:12] But can you also give us metadata, markdown, so that we can use it in LLM also with website?

[00:37:19] And I thought, wow, it doesn't look a good fit for screenshot API.

[00:37:22] But I can build a separate product.

[00:37:24] I also bought a domain for that.

[00:37:27] Get your old data.

[00:37:28] Build some alpha version, yes.

[00:37:30] But then I decided, okay, I still want to have focus on to reach 10K.

[00:37:34] And then I will think.

[00:37:35] Support chat is...

[00:37:36] It's like, it's a factory of insights.

[00:37:38] It probably will be the last thing that I will source, especially to AI.

[00:37:42] Let's say...

[00:37:45] Also, Jason Cohen writes about that.

[00:37:47] Don't be...

[00:37:48] People hate support.

[00:37:49] I don't know why.

[00:37:50] But I love support.

[00:37:51] Because it's also when you fix the issue and people tell you thank you, you feel that you do some work.

[00:37:58] People need you.

[00:37:59] You're still relevant in the market, something like that.

[00:38:01] Yeah, and you did it so much that people are actually honoring you on Twitter about exactly that.

[00:38:06] Like how responsive you are in support.

[00:38:08] And I think you also have testimonials on your website that says the same.

[00:38:12] But I have seen a lot of people just mention you directly on social saying you are very respondent, very cool as a support guy.

[00:38:19] Yes, I...

[00:38:21] On testimonials, like I probably...

[00:38:23] I think I asked only about three of them.

[00:38:26] Like most of them I put like when people say.

[00:38:28] Sometimes I ask because I see, okay, like it could be a good fit for new use case.

[00:38:34] But most of them like people, I helped some guy and he was building his business and I solved all his issues.

[00:38:40] Like integrated everything and so on.

[00:38:42] And he said to me, can I give you a testimonial or something like that?

[00:38:46] I said, okay, let's go.

[00:38:47] I love it.

[00:38:48] But that's...

[00:38:49] I think that's because that's what business is about.

[00:38:51] This support chart is my product actually.

[00:38:53] People come to me, I solve their problems and that's it.

[00:38:56] Let's imagine I have an agency.

[00:38:59] That automates screenshots for you.

[00:39:01] But it's something like that.

[00:39:03] But I have product which helps you.

[00:39:05] But a lot of issues on integration.

[00:39:06] It's probably partially because of the product too, you know.

[00:39:09] So yes, it helps a lot to be responsive, answer quickly and solve issues as fast as possible.

[00:39:16] Kind of obsession for me.

[00:39:18] I have to ask this maybe also.

[00:39:21] That's like more a question from being in the same bubble and maybe community question and caring about you more as a person, as an indie hacker.

[00:39:29] Are you still doing fine?

[00:39:32] Is that it's the amount of work so much that it like weighs on you?

[00:39:36] Or is it still okay at this point?

[00:39:39] Like how much do you work?

[00:39:41] Is it okay?

[00:39:42] Are you mentally still okay with this amount of work?

[00:39:45] It might be a little too personal.

[00:39:47] I'm sorry.

[00:39:47] No, it's okay.

[00:39:48] It's okay.

[00:39:48] I love this podcast.

[00:39:49] Actually, I prefer to talk about these things.

[00:39:54] I have two answers.

[00:39:56] One for my customers and one for you.

[00:39:58] Make sure the customers don't listen.

[00:40:01] No, no, it's okay.

[00:40:02] I prefer to be honest also with customers in a sense that I want to be predictable for their business.

[00:40:08] So for my customers, I'm perfectly fine.

[00:40:11] I will never give up.

[00:40:11] I don't quit and everything is okay.

[00:40:16] For you and for others who are curious, I would say that probably like most of us and what I see from people.

[00:40:25] But I have exactly, I have a streak of 40 days of working productively and be super happy and everything was cool.

[00:40:35] But probably two days ago, I don't know why, but somehow I became anxious and I felt, wow, I'm a loser.

[00:40:42] I'm failing.

[00:40:43] I don't know.

[00:40:44] And it's very interesting because I don't understand why.

[00:40:47] So maybe I just, I thought maybe my body tells me, maybe please take a little bit of break.

[00:40:54] Maybe you're doing too much because I just decided I want like, I work in the morning, evening, every day, weekends.

[00:41:02] It doesn't matter.

[00:41:03] I keep pushing, improving and so on.

[00:41:05] So if I post on Saturday that I sponsor some websites, I mean it.

[00:41:11] I do it like it's happening right now.

[00:41:14] And also, I love it.

[00:41:16] I love what I do.

[00:41:17] It's important.

[00:41:17] Yes.

[00:41:18] So yes, I feel that a few days ago, I felt that I'm like, I'm probably touching some boundaries, some limits.

[00:41:27] And so what I did yesterday, I just sat and started to rebuild my personal website from Hugo to Astra without any goal of financials in mind.

[00:41:36] Just doing that.

[00:41:38] That's one thing.

[00:41:39] I also try to keep my schedule more or less balanced.

[00:41:43] What I mean by that, that every morning I read a book and drink a cup of coffee.

[00:41:49] It's probably a super bourgeois of me.

[00:41:51] I'm having this lifestyle.

[00:41:53] But it was my dream.

[00:41:54] That's what the 10K MRR are for, right?

[00:41:57] If not that, I don't want to do it.

[00:42:00] I need just a cup of coffee and to read a book in the morning.

[00:42:03] And that's, it's my, I want to do it till the end of my life and also like building products.

[00:42:09] So that helps me to balance.

[00:42:11] Also, I play football every week with pretty aggressive team and like pretty aggressive guys.

[00:42:18] And it's like a lot of, in some sense, fighting.

[00:42:22] And that's probably why I'm not so aggressive on Twitter.

[00:42:25] And I probably have some kind of kind vibe maybe because I don't need that.

[00:42:30] I don't like all my aggression is on sports.

[00:42:33] I have a lot of work.

[00:42:34] I have a lot of stuff doing.

[00:42:36] So it keeps me a lot balanced.

[00:42:40] Then I take vacations.

[00:42:41] I try to take like probably two days in a month, in two months to drive somewhere.

[00:42:48] Dozer, sea, beach with my kids somewhere.

[00:42:51] Like we have been visiting a beach in the Red Sea, I think a week ago.

[00:42:57] And we were swimming and we met dolphins.

[00:42:59] It was crazy.

[00:43:00] It was like for us still, it's still for me crazy to comprehend what happened.

[00:43:05] So it was for me like recharge.

[00:43:07] I still worked on that day in the evening when we came home.

[00:43:10] So I feel that at the meta level, I was meditating a lot some time ago.

[00:43:17] I was diving into all this spiritual stuff like about what is self, what are our thoughts, how conscious works and so on.

[00:43:26] And it helped me to observe myself from this kind of detached perspective sometimes.

[00:43:34] And so what I see, I work a lot now.

[00:43:37] And sometimes I'm tired.

[00:43:39] Sometimes I'm anxious.

[00:43:40] But at the meta level, when I see all that, like what's happening, I'm pretty satisfied.

[00:43:44] And I know that I have probably the best life of my year, probably the best possible life that I could live.

[00:43:51] Yes.

[00:43:52] Yes, I'm not building.

[00:43:53] I'm not sending rockets to Mars.

[00:43:56] I don't know.

[00:43:58] Most of us aren't.

[00:44:00] Yes, yes.

[00:44:00] But it doesn't matter for me because I don't want the life of that person.

[00:44:05] That's the first thing.

[00:44:07] And it's for me what matters.

[00:44:09] I know what my life was.

[00:44:10] And now it's much, much better.

[00:44:12] And it's okay for me.

[00:44:13] I'm grateful for that.

[00:44:14] So if it will be a little bit better, it will be cool.

[00:44:17] Yes, but I'm at the point of enough.

[00:44:20] So sometimes I'm anxious and still doubt myself.

[00:44:23] Maybe some AI, some competitor will hit me and I will lose my business and I don't know what I will do.

[00:44:29] I have the thoughts every week probably.

[00:44:32] I have low moments, of course.

[00:44:36] We will talk after recording about that.

[00:44:39] We have pretty tough events happening and so on.

[00:44:42] So let's try to stay positive.

[00:44:44] I try to give example to my kids.

[00:44:46] You need to, no matter what happens in your life, no matter how hard it is, you need to keep, I don't want to say pushing, but you need fighting.

[00:44:57] I don't know what is the best word for it.

[00:44:59] But you need to go for your dream, for what you want to achieve.

[00:45:02] And if possible, to stay kind with people around you, to stay, to build healthy relationships and so on.

[00:45:09] But not at cost of your mental health.

[00:45:11] So what I mean by that is I don't think I will burn out soon, probably.

[00:45:17] Because I noticed that in my case, burnouts are caused mostly by, I think I only had one.

[00:45:24] And I had pre-burnout situation.

[00:45:26] But in most cases, correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:45:29] Because it happens because you are not authentic.

[00:45:31] And you take some kind of persona on you and try to push this persona for long enough.

[00:45:37] And then you just, I can't anymore.

[00:45:40] I failed.

[00:45:41] I don't know.

[00:45:42] Let's, for example, take, imagine I keep working and keep pushing.

[00:45:46] And I imagine myself as a super hardworking, super ethical, super work ethic person, like, who works a lot.

[00:45:54] And if it's not my true self, if I don't work that hard and so on, at some point I will just probably drop.

[00:46:00] Like, at some point, this kind of, if you're not authentic, you will have a lot of friction.

[00:46:04] Because you need to build this not authentic, how you said, image, even to yourself.

[00:46:11] Not even, I don't even talk about social media.

[00:46:13] You need to keep it.

[00:46:14] You need an energy to keep it.

[00:46:15] You need an energy to keep going.

[00:46:17] And that means you drain that energy, not on the action itself.

[00:46:21] I think I went to meta in this conversation.

[00:46:26] So stop me if I need to.

[00:46:27] I think something about burnout that is true is that burnout exists, right?

[00:46:35] And there's also bore out where you're so bored in your job that you also can't show up anymore, right?

[00:46:41] And I think both have the same.

[00:46:43] There's also laziness, yes.

[00:46:44] There's also laziness, of course.

[00:46:46] But there's also if you're stuck in a situation where you're not working on something that you enjoy.

[00:46:51] And then it might be not that much work, but having to work on it for whatever reason.

[00:46:56] Maybe you have family you have to support or you can't find another job.

[00:46:59] It's going to burn you out, even though you're not in a situation where you're 14 hours working, right?

[00:47:04] So I think the similarities in those two are always that you're not authentic, one.

[00:47:10] Or maybe that you're working on something that doesn't show any passion for you, right?

[00:47:15] So you're working on something you're not passionate about.

[00:47:17] And there's people that are completely fine working at least for some time, 12 hours plus a day on their product.

[00:47:24] And they won't burn out.

[00:47:25] Yes, for some time, yes.

[00:47:26] I think you can overdo that as well.

[00:47:28] I think, yes.

[00:47:29] Yeah.

[00:47:30] I think there is one catch with that that I realized recently.

[00:47:33] I saw Philipp Keller recently wrote about that on Twitter that he's struggling with his product now and he's losing motivation.

[00:47:41] And one of the things I noticed about motivation and passion, probably about passion, I would say.

[00:47:46] Actually, if you go now to the dictionary and you check what a session is, barely uncontrollable emotion.

[00:47:53] Like it's not building all your career and all your future or something like that.

[00:47:57] I'm not sure it's a healthy way.

[00:47:59] But what I mean by that, motivation is also pretty close to that.

[00:48:03] I need to think about that.

[00:48:04] But okay.

[00:48:06] So I noticed that sometimes you have passion and motivation after you started and got some success.

[00:48:13] Not before you, for example, Screenshot API.

[00:48:16] It's amazingly boring product.

[00:48:18] It's the synonym of boringness for developers.

[00:48:21] If you want to, I can't imagine something more boring than that.

[00:48:26] But I'm pretty, what I like to work on that.

[00:48:30] Not because it's a screenshot API or because of technical challenges, but because other people like it, like to use it.

[00:48:37] And I have a proxy.

[00:48:38] Like they, I have some kind of success with it, yes.

[00:48:41] And this success fuels me and fuels motivation to work on it.

[00:48:44] So what I mean by that, when I started six or seven months, I was thinking to drop it.

[00:48:50] And it was like with almost every project I did.

[00:48:53] But then I realized, okay, if I launch something, get some positive feedback, you know, there's, you start building some kind of momentum.

[00:49:02] And then you see like people like it, then they like it more than they give you some feedback.

[00:49:08] Then they say, okay, I signed up and that doesn't work.

[00:49:11] And you progress, progress.

[00:49:12] And then at some point you get even paying customers.

[00:49:14] And then, boom, you have more paying customers.

[00:49:16] And if you can keep this momentum or build your work the way that you can keep this momentum, your motivation, appetite, and probably passion will grow this time, yes.

[00:49:27] Of course, there is some COVID because it should be at least some kind of direction you want to be in.

[00:49:35] Yes, like you can't just go.

[00:49:36] If I go now, let's say, I don't know, into agriculture sector and try to build tractors, probably I will not have passion because even if I have success, I think there should be some interlap between what you want to do, yes.

[00:49:51] But so, for example, with Philip, what I said to him is just stop, start releasing it, get some feedback, and keep repeating that, yes.

[00:49:59] And you will have, don't wait for motivation in that sense because I know it also, it won't work that way.

[00:50:06] But just release it, it will be painful, release it, get some feedback.

[00:50:10] You will have some first emotions.

[00:50:13] Like, we are people, we have ego.

[00:50:14] None of us, most of the people I see on Twitter are unenlightened.

[00:50:18] They're not enlightened, they didn't reach the stage of dissolving their self and so on.

[00:50:24] Most of the people are not, and those who are probably are not on Twitter.

[00:50:28] So, that's probably true, yeah.

[00:50:32] So, most of us have ego, but you can use your ego as a tool.

[00:50:36] So, you launch something, you get some likes, and your ego like it, and then you use your ego to keep pushing, to keep launching, yes.

[00:50:45] So, the problem only arises, the real suffering, when you attach yourself to your ego, you know.

[00:50:52] But it's another tool thing.

[00:50:55] And I think there is, I think, 100% agree on this.

[00:50:58] I actually heard the same about sports.

[00:51:00] If you try to get back into doing gym or anything like that, don't wait for motivation to go.

[00:51:06] Just fucking go, and the motivation will come from the first successes you get, right?

[00:51:10] Oh, so right, yes.

[00:51:11] It's basically the same thing.

[00:51:13] Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[00:51:14] And then there's the other thing that I wanted to mention shortly, so I'm using this type of question in there.

[00:51:20] You can always, like, I think what a lot of people are using, if they get bored from their main product, you can always, like, launch something else or build, like, a free tool that builds back into your main product, right?

[00:51:34] Yes, yes, yes.

[00:51:34] I know that you build this little game where you have to press all the cookie banners away.

[00:51:38] Yes, yes.

[00:51:39] Thank you.

[00:51:40] So, not just working on your main product, and if you have the freedom to do something else, why not do it?

[00:51:46] I have also, two weeks ago, I did the same.

[00:51:48] I redesigned my website, not because it doesn't convert nobody.

[00:51:52] Like, I have visitors, but it doesn't really convert to any freelance clients.

[00:51:56] It's just there to be there.

[00:51:57] But I redesigned it because I wanted to be, like, creative, and I came up with a Bauhaus design.

[00:52:03] So, just do something that, like, triggers your brain back into this creative, fun, passionate way.

[00:52:09] And that also helps with the main product.

[00:52:11] That's at least in my experience.

[00:52:13] Yes, it's a good one, actually.

[00:52:15] Like, so, I probably will...

[00:52:20] It would be a spectrum, I think.

[00:52:22] Like, you can try to build a side project for your main product,

[00:52:24] but sometimes you can even feel that you don't want to make a side project for this product.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:29] Because you're so tired of it.

[00:52:31] So, maybe you need to do what I was doing yesterday.

[00:52:33] Actually, I could continue working on Screenshot 1,

[00:52:36] but I decided to force myself.

[00:52:38] Like, I felt this anxiety.

[00:52:39] So, I forced myself to work on my personal website anyway,

[00:52:44] and because it's pretty close to some, I feel something.

[00:52:48] So, I decided to work, and now again, I can work.

[00:52:50] So, I'm with you on that.

[00:52:51] Like, building something on the side is always possible,

[00:52:54] and I really like to build this simple game.

[00:52:57] It's pretty dumb, yes?

[00:52:58] But you have so much creativity when you're not bounded by money.

[00:53:02] Like, if you don't think about money, you can...

[00:53:04] I just...

[00:53:05] This thing that I built, it's not about...

[00:53:08] It can't bring me any money.

[00:53:09] It's just dumb cookie banners, which you need to blast, and so on.

[00:53:13] Yes, it's...

[00:53:14] The idea was to capitalize a little bit on this kind of conflict

[00:53:18] between people fighting on Twitter about cookie banners, yes?

[00:53:21] I think it's dumb for both sides.

[00:53:23] It doesn't matter at all.

[00:53:24] Those who care can install extensions to block them.

[00:53:27] Those who don't care, shouldn't care.

[00:53:29] It's pretty strange for me.

[00:53:30] I see...

[00:53:30] I really see these problems, because I block these banners on screenshots.

[00:53:34] I should say that it's really painful.

[00:53:37] Somebody who can use browser extension and so on.

[00:53:41] But it's another topic to discuss, yes?

[00:53:42] So, what I want to say here is that...

[00:53:44] I had so much fun working on it, because I said,

[00:53:47] oh, okay, I will just do dumb thing.

[00:53:49] I will post these Twitter screenshots.

[00:53:51] I will allow you to blast these banners.

[00:53:54] We'll fix mixed languages.

[00:53:56] I don't know.

[00:53:56] Leaderboard.

[00:53:57] Something.

[00:53:58] Then I spent three days on it, and I felt, oh, okay, okay.

[00:54:01] I'm investing too much time, but I feel pretty recharged.

[00:54:04] I am going back to Screenshot 1.

[00:54:06] So I just said, okay.

[00:54:06] So it's a marketing project, but it's truly not...

[00:54:09] I can't see how it will bring customers to Screenshot 1,

[00:54:12] but it can help me maybe to get some attention.

[00:54:15] But what I wanted really, if I probably invested a bit more time in it

[00:54:19] to make it really attractive, more engaging maybe,

[00:54:23] once in a while somebody writes on Twitter about cookie banners.

[00:54:26] It happens all the time.

[00:54:27] So I wanted to catch this kind of trend.

[00:54:29] Yeah, that's fine, right?

[00:54:31] Yeah.

[00:54:31] I really don't care about...

[00:54:33] It's not a problem for me.

[00:54:34] We have much more serious problems to solve.

[00:54:36] It's cookie banners.

[00:54:37] It's not a problem I want to solve.

[00:54:38] But I want to use it.

[00:54:40] For me, it's funny what happens.

[00:54:42] It's like people know this time zone intersection.

[00:54:45] When Europeans are going to sleep almost and Americans wake up,

[00:54:48] there is some kind of intersections and jokes about Europe

[00:54:51] and the United States and all this stuff.

[00:54:55] Yes.

[00:54:56] And if you wake up, let's say, in the morning of Europe

[00:54:59] and you open Twitter, you don't see this arguing.

[00:55:02] Or if you open too late and only American tweets,

[00:55:06] you don't see also this intersection.

[00:55:07] So it's so funny.

[00:55:10] But yeah, the point still stands.

[00:55:11] Like when you're burning out.

[00:55:13] And I think one thing that we haven't mentioned yet is that

[00:55:15] basically everyone in the IndieHacker bubble started

[00:55:18] because they enjoy building stuff.

[00:55:20] So maybe sometimes we have to go back to enjoying building stuff.

[00:55:25] Just build it for the building part.

[00:55:27] As software developers, we usually like building more than marketing.

[00:55:31] And sometimes just going in your corner and building something

[00:55:35] just for the sake of building might be a good idea.

[00:55:37] Yes.

[00:55:37] If you want to build a business, you need to focus on marketing.

[00:55:41] One other person.

[00:55:43] It's non-negotiable, non-discussable.

[00:55:46] But I decided for myself to have this kind of heuristics.

[00:55:50] Either I build for fun or I buy.

[00:55:53] So if I see something, let's say, I don't know, what I bought recently,

[00:55:57] I don't know, log management system, I probably could build it.

[00:56:01] I don't know.

[00:56:01] It's pretty extensive.

[00:56:02] But I decided just to pay for it and to use it.

[00:56:05] Yes.

[00:56:05] Or for example, there is some issue, maybe an SEO.

[00:56:09] I want to automate some tasks, but I see it's so much work.

[00:56:12] It won't be fun.

[00:56:14] I feel it won't be fun for me.

[00:56:16] So I probably will pay for it.

[00:56:17] Yes.

[00:56:18] But sometimes one other person, if you love to build,

[00:56:21] you need to build periodically.

[00:56:22] It's to not lose this kind of...

[00:56:24] You're humans.

[00:56:24] If you're not...

[00:56:25] Only few of us.

[00:56:26] Only few of us can cut everything, can focus only.

[00:56:30] I don't know this one super goal.

[00:56:34] And we are happy enough, and ecology and evolution,

[00:56:38] biology gave us a variety of brains and people.

[00:56:41] Some people do that, but we, simple people, okay, me.

[00:56:45] Yes.

[00:56:45] I can just...

[00:56:46] What I mean by that, I can just enjoy, build some small products,

[00:56:50] read some books, have enjoying life in many dimensions.

[00:56:55] Yes.

[00:56:55] Not only in one.

[00:56:56] That some people are playing Olympic sport.

[00:57:00] Yes.

[00:57:01] Like, literally and in business.

[00:57:02] And some people just enjoy playing football on the weekend and also having family and reading books.

[00:57:08] Yeah, exactly.

[00:57:08] Also fine, right?

[00:57:09] Yeah.

[00:57:10] And if you know that you're not in Olympics,

[00:57:12] and if you know that you're in the team of having football on the weekends and so on,

[00:57:16] then building, sometimes building just something for fun without any kind of disfinancial goal in the mind,

[00:57:24] it's so much...

[00:57:25] It's rewarding and so much good for the soul.

[00:57:29] Yeah.

[00:57:30] Perfect.

[00:57:30] We're running a little out of time, Dimitro.

[00:57:32] I always have one question I want to ask everyone that's on the show in the end,

[00:57:36] which is if you had an indie hacker come to you and they're just starting out now,

[00:57:41] what would be like the one tip or lesson you would give them?

[00:57:45] Yeah.

[00:57:47] That's a good question.

[00:57:50] That's what a lot of guests are saying.

[00:57:53] I would probably don't give any tips.

[00:57:57] Because it's so hard to dive into the context of the person.

[00:58:02] Like knowing all the background of somebody,

[00:58:04] knowing all what they want,

[00:58:06] all the ideas and combining some kind of tips specifically for this person.

[00:58:11] Wow.

[00:58:11] It would be super hard.

[00:58:13] I would say that people actually can reach out to me and I help a lot of people.

[00:58:17] And some of them already have paying customers.

[00:58:20] I can probably say that I'm proud of that.

[00:58:23] Like help to nail idea, landing page, like to do some marketing.

[00:58:28] So what I noticed, like you need to know like what you want probably.

[00:58:37] For example, do you want to reach like 10K MRR or let's say you want to build a million dollar company?

[00:58:47] It's good if you know it exactly.

[00:58:48] If not, okay, you can start going anyway.

[00:58:50] But if you know that and you can have, let's say in some niches, for example, in screenshot APIs,

[00:58:57] yes, you cannot build a company.

[00:58:58] It's impossible to build a company which has, I don't know, $5,000 MRR.

[00:59:06] It's just impossible.

[00:59:06] I see the niche.

[00:59:07] I see the market.

[00:59:08] I see how, what is demand.

[00:59:10] It's just impossible.

[00:59:11] So if you have a goal in mind, what you want to achieve with money,

[00:59:15] what life you want to live,

[00:59:16] it's good because it will allow you to choose a market.

[00:59:21] And my mistake was,

[00:59:23] not sure it was a mistake,

[00:59:24] but I see it as a mistake.

[00:59:25] It's choosing super small market

[00:59:27] because when you reach like all the capacity of your market,

[00:59:32] all potential,

[00:59:33] you don't have any kind of niche to expand.

[00:59:37] You need to build a new product,

[00:59:38] completely new case and so on.

[00:59:40] But if, for example,

[00:59:41] you're starting in the market,

[00:59:43] some huge market,

[00:59:44] I don't know,

[00:59:44] email sending,

[00:59:45] let's say,

[00:59:46] yes,

[00:59:46] you have so many small niches

[00:59:48] you can try to conquer to be the first

[00:59:50] and then expand into more niches like ConverterKit.

[00:59:53] So if you know what you want to do is good,

[00:59:56] then you decide on the market your work.

[00:59:58] And then,

[01:00:00] like I recently spoke to one of my old friends

[01:00:02] or colleagues of mine,

[01:00:03] I don't know,

[01:00:05] and they said to me

[01:00:06] that they are launching a product

[01:00:08] and they asked me

[01:00:10] how they could find customers for it.

[01:00:12] So it was interesting

[01:00:13] because they already built a product

[01:00:14] and I said,

[01:00:15] I know this,

[01:00:16] I did it myself,

[01:00:17] yes,

[01:00:17] we talked about this,

[01:00:18] yes,

[01:00:18] but when you build a product,

[01:00:20] probably,

[01:00:21] I recommend you to know

[01:00:23] who you're building it for.

[01:00:24] Yeah.

[01:00:25] Even,

[01:00:26] that's important,

[01:00:27] even if it's a mistake,

[01:00:28] let's say you have some

[01:00:30] ideal customer profile in your head,

[01:00:33] even if it's a mistake,

[01:00:34] better to make a mistake

[01:00:35] and change it

[01:00:36] and then try again

[01:00:37] than to not have any kind of idea in the head,

[01:00:41] yes.

[01:00:41] So if I were to start again,

[01:00:43] let's say I have an idea now,

[01:00:45] it's a real idea,

[01:00:46] I have this all expenses,

[01:00:47] I want to check them,

[01:00:48] I want to collect invoices also.

[01:00:51] And I have this idea of building

[01:00:52] this kind of invoice keeper software,

[01:00:54] something small for myself

[01:00:55] and maybe I can sell it,

[01:00:57] yes.

[01:00:57] My hypothesis would be

[01:00:59] that I can reach to any solopreneur,

[01:01:01] any company,

[01:01:03] small company in the country

[01:01:04] with pretty complex requirements

[01:01:06] in let's say Germany,

[01:01:07] for example,

[01:01:08] and other countries.

[01:01:09] And they will probably need it

[01:01:11] or they already use something

[01:01:12] so I can try to sell it.

[01:01:14] So what I did,

[01:01:15] it's a real story.

[01:01:16] So what I did,

[01:01:17] I asked some people in Austria,

[01:01:19] in German also,

[01:01:20] what do you use now for this niche?

[01:01:22] And do you have such a problem?

[01:01:23] And some of them

[01:01:25] are using Zapier now.

[01:01:27] And I understand,

[01:01:28] oh, okay,

[01:01:28] if they're using Zapier for this,

[01:01:29] I can sell them my product.

[01:01:31] So what I mean by that,

[01:01:32] if you have this market

[01:01:33] you want to work in

[01:01:34] and you have profile

[01:01:36] you want to build for,

[01:01:38] I know it's hard,

[01:01:39] it sounds like banal

[01:01:40] and everybody says it,

[01:01:42] but go and

[01:01:43] you need to find

[01:01:45] this customer somehow

[01:01:46] because

[01:01:46] if you don't find them before

[01:01:48] and you build a product,

[01:01:51] how you will do that?

[01:01:52] Vice versa, yes.

[01:01:53] How you will do that?

[01:01:54] It will be very hard.

[01:01:55] Like I did it

[01:01:56] with Skinshot 1,

[01:01:57] like I built it

[01:01:58] and then I was promoting it

[01:01:59] everywhere and so on.

[01:02:00] It's still possible,

[01:02:01] I think, yes.

[01:02:02] But the most interesting one,

[01:02:04] don't give up.

[01:02:05] No.

[01:02:07] No matter how hard it is

[01:02:09] and you have these slow days

[01:02:10] when you think like

[01:02:12] the world is falling apart,

[01:02:13] I can't do anything,

[01:02:14] I'm a loser,

[01:02:15] I will not succeed.

[01:02:18] Maybe ask yourself,

[01:02:19] keep curiosity

[01:02:20] and ask yourself

[01:02:21] what if you continue

[01:02:22] for a few more weeks

[01:02:23] and then decide

[01:02:24] if you want to give up.

[01:02:25] You can always give up, right?

[01:02:27] Yes, you can always give up.

[01:02:29] And let's be honest

[01:02:30] and true scientifically.

[01:02:33] At some point,

[01:02:33] you will be give up

[01:02:34] by the universe automatically.

[01:02:37] You don't...

[01:02:37] Anyway, keep trying.

[01:02:39] Anyway, keep trying.

[01:02:40] And there is some kind of wisdom

[01:02:42] when you need to stop.

[01:02:43] But it's up on you.

[01:02:43] Don't just give up

[01:02:45] because you're tired

[01:02:46] and you have this slow day

[01:02:47] and your car is not working

[01:02:49] and you have some hard events

[01:02:51] and happening and so on.

[01:02:53] Just try to...

[01:02:56] A few more days,

[01:02:57] a few more days

[01:02:57] and then a few more days

[01:02:58] and then a few more days

[01:02:59] and then oops

[01:03:00] and you have something.

[01:03:01] I know it's hard.

[01:03:03] Yeah, I think that's good.

[01:03:04] I think that's a good point

[01:03:05] to end on

[01:03:06] to not give up

[01:03:07] and just try to see

[01:03:08] if it works out and not.

[01:03:10] I think the indie hacking scene

[01:03:12] has moved a lot

[01:03:13] into this direction

[01:03:13] of 12 products

[01:03:15] in 12 months

[01:03:16] and if it doesn't work

[01:03:17] take the next one

[01:03:18] and I think

[01:03:18] that doesn't work

[01:03:19] for more complex software

[01:03:21] or complex products.

[01:03:22] So, yeah.

[01:03:23] I don't like this.

[01:03:24] Just don't give up

[01:03:24] that fast and that easily.

[01:03:26] Yes, it's interesting.

[01:03:28] 12 projects

[01:03:29] is pretty hard.

[01:03:31] Yeah, people were like

[01:03:32] running like 30 projects

[01:03:34] in 30 days

[01:03:35] and stuff like that

[01:03:35] which is insane.

[01:03:36] Just try and find

[01:03:38] a good product

[01:03:38] try to find users for them

[01:03:40] and then build it

[01:03:40] and see what happens.

[01:03:42] But, yeah.

[01:03:43] One thing I don't...

[01:03:45] Like, it's still a question

[01:03:46] for me

[01:03:46] but if you see a market

[01:03:47] and the market is growing

[01:03:49] let's say, for example

[01:03:50] crawling for LLMs

[01:03:52] you see there's

[01:03:54] more and more demand

[01:03:55] and you need more crawlers

[01:03:57] and there is

[01:03:57] some products

[01:03:58] if you can bring

[01:04:00] some kind of

[01:04:01] differentiation

[01:04:02] in pricing

[01:04:03] in design

[01:04:04] in language

[01:04:05] I don't know

[01:04:05] which support

[01:04:06] the crawlers

[01:04:07] yes

[01:04:07] something like that

[01:04:08] I can't imagine

[01:04:10] how it won't succeed

[01:04:11] if you push enough

[01:04:12] and if you're

[01:04:13] a persevere

[01:04:13] and try

[01:04:14] let's say for one year

[01:04:16] if it doesn't work

[01:04:17] for one year

[01:04:17] and you tried everything

[01:04:18] okay

[01:04:19] okay

[01:04:19] you can give up

[01:04:20] probably yes

[01:04:21] but if you just

[01:04:22] I don't know

[01:04:22] launch some landing page

[01:04:23] some half-backed product

[01:04:25] and

[01:04:26] post it

[01:04:28] this once

[01:04:28] on Twitter

[01:04:29] and nobody pays you

[01:04:31] $1,000

[01:04:31] and you say

[01:04:32] like it doesn't work

[01:04:33] sorry

[01:04:35] it's a little

[01:04:36] harder

[01:04:37] it's not

[01:04:38] how it works

[01:04:39] yeah

[01:04:41] all right

[01:04:43] Dimitri

[01:04:43] sorry

[01:04:44] I think we have

[01:04:45] to end at this point

[01:04:46] I think that's also

[01:04:47] a great point

[01:04:47] to end on

[01:04:49] but where do people

[01:04:50] find you

[01:04:51] on the internet

[01:04:51] if they want

[01:04:52] to read up

[01:04:52] more on you

[01:04:53] if they want

[01:04:53] to connect

[01:04:54] if they want

[01:04:54] to use

[01:04:55] screenshot one

[01:04:56] it's pretty simple

[01:04:57] I think

[01:04:58] I have a personal

[01:04:59] website

[01:05:00] and I'm rebuilding

[01:05:01] it now

[01:05:02] on Astro

[01:05:03] I will probably

[01:05:04] put all my latest

[01:05:05] posts

[01:05:05] everything

[01:05:06] like how to

[01:05:06] contact me

[01:05:07] and so on

[01:05:07] on it

[01:05:07] it will be

[01:05:08] like my name

[01:05:10] dmitrocrosson.net

[01:05:11] .com

[01:05:12] .com

[01:05:12] yes

[01:05:13] and

[01:05:13] also

[01:05:14] I'm pretty active

[01:05:15] on Fizzro

[01:05:15] less active

[01:05:16] on

[01:05:16] ah

[01:05:16] and you can

[01:05:17] email me

[01:05:18] always at

[01:05:18] dmitro

[01:05:19] at screenshotone.com

[01:05:20] any questions

[01:05:22] about business

[01:05:22] anything

[01:05:23] any ideas

[01:05:24] partnerships

[01:05:24] like anything

[01:05:25] we can talk

[01:05:26] about

[01:05:27] awesome

[01:05:28] and where do

[01:05:28] people find

[01:05:29] screenshot

[01:05:30] one

[01:05:30] the tool

[01:05:30] itself

[01:05:31] it's

[01:05:32] it's

[01:05:32] screenshotone.com

[01:05:33] so it's

[01:05:34] on google

[01:05:35] if you put

[01:05:36] screenshot api

[01:05:37] it should be

[01:05:38] the first

[01:05:39] we didn't talk

[01:05:40] about that

[01:05:41] but it was

[01:05:42] a lot of work

[01:05:44] all right

[01:05:44] and we'll also

[01:05:45] put all of the

[01:05:46] links in the

[01:05:46] show notes

[01:05:47] as always

[01:05:47] so you can

[01:05:48] just go there

[01:05:48] and click

[01:05:48] them

[01:05:49] maybe we don't

[01:05:50] put the email

[01:05:51] of dmitro there

[01:05:52] but you can

[01:05:52] get it out

[01:05:53] of the podcast

[01:05:54] and yeah

[01:05:54] dmitro thank

[01:05:55] you so much

[01:05:56] for doing the

[01:05:56] podcast

[01:06:00] listeners

[01:06:02] thank you

[01:06:02] thank you

[01:06:03] for having

[01:06:03] me and

[01:06:04] i enjoyed

[01:06:04] it a lot

[01:06:05] you have

[01:06:05] a good

[01:06:06] vibe

[01:06:07] so folks

[01:06:08] friends

[01:06:10] don't give

[01:06:10] up i don't

[01:06:11] know keep

[01:06:12] working on

[01:06:12] your dreams

[01:06:13] and i know

[01:06:14] it sounds

[01:06:15] banal but

[01:06:15] i mean it

[01:06:17] perfect all

[01:06:18] right i'm

[01:06:19] gonna say the

[01:06:19] same and agree

[01:06:20] there with

[01:06:20] dmitro and

[01:06:21] dmitro thank

[01:06:22] you for being

[01:06:22] here and

[01:06:23] have a nice

[01:06:24] evening now

[01:06:25] bye bye

[01:06:28] and that's

[01:06:28] our episode

[01:06:29] thank you for

[01:06:30] sticking with

[01:06:30] us to the

[01:06:31] end you can

[01:06:32] find me on

[01:06:32] twitter with

[01:06:33] the username

[01:06:33] icebellabs

[01:06:34] that's i-c-e-b-e-a-r-l-a-b-s

[01:06:36] we have a website

[01:06:37] you can check

[01:06:37] out go to

[01:06:38] codeandconquer.fm

[01:06:39] to find out

[01:06:40] more you can

[01:06:41] find this podcast

[01:06:42] on twitter

[01:06:42] tiktok and

[01:06:43] instagram with

[01:06:43] the handle

[01:06:44] code

[01:06:45] conquerpod

[01:06:45] and can

[01:06:46] write us an

[01:06:46] email at

[01:06:47] hello at

[01:06:47] codeandconquer.fm

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